View Full Version : In God We trust
Get rid of it or axe it, either way why?
Either way do you know it's origin?
Shasta
09-06-2008, 10:12 PM
Get rid of it or axe it, either way why?
Either way do you know it's origin?
Heh Honestly it doesnt matter to me its just a saying on our currency.
For the majority of religions believe in some form of god so it cant really be offensive to them if you think about it because it doesnt specify which god...
and for atheists I really doubt that kind of term would matter I guess unless they are a diehard...
Heh Honestly it doesnt matter to me its just a saying on our currency.
For the majority of religions believe in some form of god so it cant really be offensive to them if you think about it because it doesnt specify which god...
and for atheists I really doubt that kind of term would matter I guess unless they are a diehard...
How about the constitution stating
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.True other religions have what you would consider 'god' they however have different terms for it. ;)
Juiced
09-07-2008, 02:12 AM
How about the constitution stating
True other religions have what you would consider 'god' they however have different terms for it. ;)
That has nothing to do with seperation of church and state.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 02:13 AM
And why would a true aithiest care , he doesnt believe in a God anyway.
That has nothing to do with seperation of church and state.
I beg to differ, it is government putting forth a law to promote a religion.
And why would a true aithiest care , he doesnt believe in a God anyway.
So you wouldn't care if it said 'In Satan We Trust' or in "Mohammad we Terrorize' since you don't believe or practice that religion?
Shasta
09-07-2008, 08:32 AM
now their is a difference, god is a universal term, satan and hte word terrorise = to something evil in most peoples eyes
now their is a difference, god is a universal term, satan and hte word terrorise = to something evil in most peoples eyes
Ahh but god is not a universal term, not everyone believes in god. Plus the constitution does not state you can create a law for religion based on 'most people' If that were the case, what if 'most people' are against guns.
This goes directly to why I have my views on items, not simply if I am a Christian or not 'which I am' but the penalty we would incur if we had such thinking.
If we go with the idea that the majority rules over that of the constitution, then all it takes it he 'majority' to want guns banned without any amendment bam guns are gone, if all it takes is a majority to say they don't see anything wrong with cops going through your house any time they want 'because they don't have anything to hide' than bam with the precident being put out that could be the reality.
;)
BTW 'god' in 'In God We Trust' was brought forth by Christians with the obvious intent to speak of the Christian God, not anyone else's.
Shasta
09-07-2008, 09:43 AM
yeah you have a point. But everyone does say oh my god...
you are absolutly right tho it was braught fourth on christian god, but i think it has kind of lost its meaning today on the bill so whether its there or not i dont think anyone would really notice. They are just happy to have the money:D(atleast I am!)
Juiced
09-07-2008, 09:44 AM
First off you play a good Devils advocate . Second , Nobody put forth any law for our currency t say In God We Trust.
God would be just any other word to an aithiest, It wouldnt matter. This is like an one of them saying lets go march and down to city hall because the Mayor is going to pray for rain. If you dont believe in god then nothing is going to happen so why .
Buck Wild
09-07-2008, 09:46 AM
Ahh but god is not a universal term, not everyone believes in god. Plus the constitution does not state you can create a law for religion based on 'most people' If that were the case, what if 'most people' are against guns.
This goes directly to why I have my views on items, not simply if I am a Christian or not 'which I am' but the penalty we would incur if we had such thinking.
If we go with the idea that the majority rules over that of the constitution, then all it takes it he 'majority' to want guns banned without any amendment bam guns are gone, if all it takes is a majority to say they don't see anything wrong with cops going through your house any time they want 'because they don't have anything to hide' than bam with the precident being put out that could be the reality.
;)
BTW 'god' in 'In God We Trust' was brought forth by Christians with the obvious intent to speak of the Christian God, not anyone else's.
Who founded this country Christains. This country was founded by them not aithest or jews or muslims if they dont like in god we trust go back to there roots and live there if its so much better. I am the least religous person i know but i do believe in god and that he is a higher power. Its just fires me up when people say get rid of the prayer in school cuz it offends some assshole from another country.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 09:49 AM
Who founded this country Christains. This country was founded by them not aithest or jews or muslims if they dont like in god we trust go back to there roots and live there if its so much better. I am the least religous person i know but i do believe in god and that he is a higher power. Its just fires me up when people say get rid of the prayer in school cuz it offends some assshole from another country.
This country used to be called a "melting pot" its not anymore everybody wants t be there own . When in Rome do as the Romans do. If not be decapitated
Who founded this country Christains. This country was founded by them not aithest or jews or muslims if they dont like in god we trust go back to there roots and live there if its so much better. I am the least religous person i know but i do believe in god and that he is a higher power. Its just fires me up when people say get rid of the prayer in school cuz it offends some assshole from another country.
Not all of the founders were Christians ;)
I don't believe prayer should be forced in school, I however don't believe the government should have the right to tell kids not to pray on their own time before the bell rings for example.
The government should have no say or power over religion, either for it or against it.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 09:54 AM
Which one wasnt?
What happened to "The Moral Majority"?
Buck Wild
09-07-2008, 09:56 AM
Not all of the founders were Christians ;)
I don't believe prayer should be forced in school, I however don't believe the government should have the right to tell kids not to pray on their own time before the bell rings for example.
The government should have no say or power over religion, either for it or against it.
So you saying the pilgrams were not christians. I didnt say that prayer was forced in school i was saying if you want to pray do it and if you dont then dont. You also have to remember i live in the bible belt. We might as well get rid of the pledge to the flag as well.
First off you play a good Devils advocate . Second , Nobody put forth any law for our currency t say In God We Trust.
God would be just any other word to an aithiest, It wouldnt matter. This is like an one of them saying lets go march and down to city hall because the Mayor is going to pray for rain. If you dont believe in god then nothing is going to happen so why .
You are factually incorrect.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:
Legislation is law.
It is forcing people to use currency stating 'In God We Trust'
What if you don't believe in God.
You know damn well no Christian would allow 'In Mohammad, In Buddha, in anything other than God' which further destroys the 2nd argument being made.
BTW I used to believe In God We Trust was patriotic above all else, until I found out where In God We Trust came from.
So you saying the pilgrams were not christians. I didnt say that prayer was forced in school i was saying if you want to pray do it and if you dont then dont. You also have to remember i live in the bible belt. We might as well get rid of the pledge to the flag as well.
No I am saying not all those who fought for independence were Christians. I am also stating most who fought for religious reasons were to get the government out of their religion, a main reason many came to the US in the first place.
No the pledge should not be gotten rid of, it however should go back to what it originally was which did not include 'under god' ;)
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:55 AM
You are factually incorrect.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml
Legislation is law.
It is forcing people to use currency stating 'In God We Trust'
What if you don't believe in God.
You know damn well no Christian would allow 'In Mohammad, In Buddha, in anything other than God' which further destroys the 2nd argument being made.
BTW I used to believe In God We Trust was patriotic above all else, until I found out where In God We Trust came from.
Well im guessing if yo dont want to pray then dont. If you dont like In god we trust dont use the money!!!!
Well im guessing if yo dont want to pray then dont. If you dont like In god we trust dont use the money!!!!
Which is a non argument.
Shasta
09-07-2008, 03:48 PM
Meh who cares anyways soon its all gunna be electronic anyways. My card doesnt say in god we trust on it...
I think if there is a place for religion in school it better cover all religions IMHO. If the tradition is to do a prayer than do it, just make it optional to the students...
I pledge alegence to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which it stands,, one nation, under god with liberty and justice for all!
well schools say this every week! I think some schools stopped because it said god. which is rediculous. It is tradition. I think thats what it comes down to... I do believe in a higher power or "god" persay, just not the same god that hey where talking about. I dont care it doesnt offend me personally. Life goes on.
In God We Trust: The History
The U. S. Department of Treasury states “the motto, IN GOD WE TRUST, was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins.
From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania. As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:
Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins. You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition. It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States.”
Pollock suggested "Our Trust Is In God," "Our God And Our Country," "God And Our Country," and "God Our Trust." Chase picked "In God We Trust" to be used on some of the government's coins. The first time "In God We Trust" appeared on our coins was in 1864 on the new two cent coin, and by 1909 it was included on most the other coins. During the height of the cold war, on July 11, 1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed Public Law 140 making it mandatory that all coinage and paper currency display the motto.
In God We Trust: The Foundation
American history demonstrates repeatedly that the nation was founded on Christian principles and its founding fathers wished to acknowledge that fact all over Washington D.C. buildings, in official documents, and historical speeches. Less than a hundred years after its Declaration of Independence, In God We Trust was proclaimed on its coins. America is a free nation, and freedom of religion is still guaranteed in the Constitution’s First Amendment.
President Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time" and asked ‘Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are of God?’"
Most of you cats over here from GS know I am a devout chrsitian. I believe in a free will to express,serve,follow,worship,proclaim and glorify the God of your choosing. That certainly DOES NOT mean I believe in but one true God, but freedom of religion is an integral part of this country. Anyone who refrains from belief of any god has that right too. It is the actual freedom we were founded upon that keeps the government from dictating whome you will or will not serve. That does not negate the initial foundation of God in our country as intended. Participation is not mandated so removal is an absurd option. As for me and my house........we will serve the Lord our God.
Peace,
MWM
Most of you cats over here from GS know I am a devout chrsitian. I believe in a free will to express,serve,follow,worship,proclaim and glorify the God of your choosing. That certainly DOES NOT mean I believe in but one true God, but freedom of religion is an integral part of this country. Anyone who refrains from belief of any god has that right too. It is the actual freedom we were founded upon that keeps the government from dictating whome you will or will not serve. That does not negate the initial foundation of God in our country as intended. Participation is not mandated so removal is an absurd option. As for me and my house........we will serve the Lord our God.
Peace,
MWM
Ahh but participation is mandated as if you wish to use US currency 'which you must' you are mandated to use 'In God We Trust'
The founders also have many speeches stating how strongly they felt religion should be separate from government in all it's forms ;)
I pledge alegence to the flag of the united states of america, and to the republic for which it stands,, one nation, under god with liberty and justice for all!
The 'under god' was added long after the pledge was written.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Whats wrong with having some form rules to live by? like the 10 commandments? Thou shall not kill for example,come on its common sense. We have gotten away from common sense and everybody is so PC.
Buck Wild
09-07-2008, 06:08 PM
In God We Trust: The History
The U. S. Department of Treasury states “the motto, IN GOD WE TRUST, was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins.
From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania. As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:
Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins. You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition. It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States.”
Pollock suggested "Our Trust Is In God," "Our God And Our Country," "God And Our Country," and "God Our Trust." Chase picked "In God We Trust" to be used on some of the government's coins. The first time "In God We Trust" appeared on our coins was in 1864 on the new two cent coin, and by 1909 it was included on most the other coins. During the height of the cold war, on July 11, 1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed Public Law 140 making it mandatory that all coinage and paper currency display the motto.
In God We Trust: The Foundation
American history demonstrates repeatedly that the nation was founded on Christian principles and its founding fathers wished to acknowledge that fact all over Washington D.C. buildings, in official documents, and historical speeches. Less than a hundred years after its Declaration of Independence, In God We Trust was proclaimed on its coins. America is a free nation, and freedom of religion is still guaranteed in the Constitution’s First Amendment.
President Thomas Jefferson wrote, "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time" and asked ‘Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are of God?’"
Most of you cats over here from GS know I am a devout chrsitian. I believe in a free will to express,serve,follow,worship,proclaim and glorify the God of your choosing. That certainly DOES NOT mean I believe in but one true God, but freedom of religion is an integral part of this country. Anyone who refrains from belief of any god has that right too. It is the actual freedom we were founded upon that keeps the government from dictating whome you will or will not serve. That does not negate the initial foundation of God in our country as intended. Participation is not mandated so removal is an absurd option. As for me and my house........we will serve the Lord our God.
Peace,
MWM
Its about time i was waiting for you to chime in here.
Whats wrong with having some form rules to live by? like the 10 commandments? Thou shall not kill for example,come on its common sense. We have gotten away from common sense and everybody is so PC.
Rules are fine, why do we need religious 'rules'
I thought laws against murder were enough.
Where it is wrong for using the '10 commandments' is it's unconstitutional.
agentsmith
09-07-2008, 06:58 PM
Whats wrong with having some form rules to live by? like the 10 commandments? Thou shall not kill for example,come on its common sense. We have gotten away from common sense and everybody is so PC.Political correctness is another form of censorship and certainly lacks common sense. good post to both yourself and mwm
Who is censoring? I would never be for not allowing someone to wear a cross, to not be able to have a bible, to not be able to have the 10 commandments. It is not censoring when you simply do not want the government to force those items onto others.
I am Christian myself, I however hold the constitution above all.
Which one wasnt?
What happened to "The Moral Majority"?
Not all founders of the US were Christian, many who were were not hardcore Christians.
'The Moral Majority'
Not sure how that pertains to the constitution as the 'majority' does not over rule the constitution. Majority and or mob rule aka a direct democracy was feared by most of the founding fathers, hence the reason we were setup as a Republic.
Sorry I missed this one before.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:06 PM
We were talking about prayer in school. If 500 want and 1 doesnt , Guess what , Im sure you can figure it out.
And this country was based on Christian principles.
We were talking about prayer in school. If 500 want and 1 doesnt , Guess what , Im sure you can figure it out.
Public school is a government organization, the 'majority' does not over rule the constitution.
And this country was based on Christian principles.It most certainly was not.
---
Would you like it if you moved to a town where unbeknown to you the majority were against religion and had the power to ban you from practicing your religion?
This is exactly the reason why the government was separated from religion in the constitution, so they can not force you to partake in the religion AND so they can not take your religion away from you.
---
BTW if this country was 'based on Christian principles'
The constitution would be ripe with Christian principles, it is the complete opposite.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:36 PM
Grim , You really need to learn what the seperation of Church and State means.
And it MOST CERTAINLY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Grim , You really need to learn what the seperation of Church and State means.
And it MOST CERTAINLY IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Umm I study the constitution regularly ;)
No it most certainly was not. If the founding fathers wanted this nation to be 'christian' or of 'christian values' it would be in the constitution, of which it is not.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Seams pretty clear to me, the government can not make laws to respect in any form a religion be it forcing it upon others or simply 'respecting' it in trivial matters such as 'in god we trust' or prohibiting your right from practicing your chosen religion.
It is written the way it is to keep the government out of religion as they do not belong there.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:41 PM
BTW the Ten Commandments is common sense.
Look at it this way , You are what you are around. PERIOD!! So if every time you turn the corner you see THOU SHALL NOT STEAL , This will be ingrained in your mind .It puts it on the forefront ,should this thought arise.
I know i am rambling prolly not a good time to be debating with vicoden in me.
BTW the Ten Commandments is common sense.
Look at it this way , You are what you are around. PERIOD!! So if every time you turn the corner you see THOU SHALL NOT STEAL , This will be ingrained in your mind .It puts it on the forefront ,should this thought arise.
I know i am rambling prolly not a good time to be debating with vicoden in me.
Yes the 10 commandments are common sense and existed before the 10 commandments themselves. They are common sense morals and or laws, stealing and murder among others were illegal/frowned upon before the 10 commandments were written.
You do not need the 10 commandments in order to outlaw items. Even if the 10 commandments would somehow fix all of our nations problems, the constitution is crystal clear.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereofVicodin for the dog bite? How's that feeling btw?
BTW I am anal on reading the constitution as it is, not trying to make it fit my 'beliefs' for all you gun owners out there you'll love my positions on the 2nd, unfortunately on other items such as this you will hate me :D
I however would be the first on your side to protect your right to your religion no matter what anyone says, in the privacy of your own home, in your church, in your car, in a park, anywhere you so choose on your time.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:50 PM
This is worth remembering, because it is true. Those of you that graduated from school after the early 60's were probably never taught this. Our courts have seen to that! Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed Christians? They all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence. The Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, 'Give me liberty or give me death,' but in current textbooks, his preceding words are omitted. Here is what he actually said: 'An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death.' These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. Patrick Henry was a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this: 'It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.'
Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote in the front of his well-worn Bible: 'I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator.' He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role.
On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, 'The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.'
Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, 'The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.'
In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: 'The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.'
William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools with over 125 million copies sold until it was stopped in 1963. President Lincoln called him the 'Schoolmaster of the Nation.' Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: 'The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it is derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. From all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology.'
Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: 'Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.'
James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: 'We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.'
Today, we are asking God to bless America - but how can He bless a Nation that has departed so far from Him? Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots.
Juiced
09-07-2008, 10:56 PM
You are a constructionist ,I think this is right. You go directly by the Constitution.
How does this :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Say that our monies cant say in God we trust? It doesnt!!!
It states that the government cannot make you any certain religion. Thats it. No more No less.
Copy and paste from a religious site is far from showing that the country was founded upon the Christian religion.
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html
There are sites that disprove much of the notions set forth by those who try to claim the country was founded upon the Christian religion.
Just last week I proved one of Washington's quotes that these religious sites try to claim to be a total fabrication, false, did not happen.
Look at some of the quotes the page listed above links from just some of the founding fathers, such as.
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law."
Even if every single one of the founding fathers was a priest, it does not take away from the fact that the constitution clearly leaves out religion but to separate the government from it.
Lets look at the treaty of tripoli for yet another example by some of our founding fathers themselves that we are not based on the Christian religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_States) is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_religion); as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam); and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_world), it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries
The treaty of Tripoli was written under the presidency of George Washington and signed under John Adams, 2 very important founding fathers.
They surely appear to think it was not based on the Christian religion, who would know better than the founders themselves?
You are a constructionist ,I think this is right. You go directly by the Constitution.
How does this :
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
Say that our monies cant say in God we trust? It doesnt!!!
It states that the government cannot make you any certain religion. Thats it. No more No less.
Actually it states they can not make 'no law respecting' which as already proven in this very thread in order to make the 'in god we trust' on money congress needed to enact legislation, which legislation = a law.
It does in fact say it can not be placed on money...
It is also 'respecting' a religion by putting 'in god we trust' on a government issued form of currency.
BTW thank you all for the good debate, even if I don't agree with you I enjoy the points being put out.
;)
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